i like theories and generalizations too...
The blog world is making me feel ill so I came here to blog about it.
In the tunnel-vision blog world there’s a sort of interesting discussion being had about male and female bloggers in the poetry scene.
Mostly, sparked by this not including a balanced representation of men and women in a very gender varied scene. And some discussion here too.
Of course there’s lots and lots of analyzing and theorizing about. Maybe I should read more philosophy, more lit crit, more semiotics; but maybe I don’t give a shit about using theory to create a nice safe distance between myself and my own opinions.
For instance, this clearly stated, well-intentioned explanation that comes off as just plain sexist. To be fair, the guy's just trying to sort it all out and at least has the guts to do it in public. I just wish it wasn't all based on theory that I think is just old-school gender role assignments.
I wouldn’t mind knowing how many women have editorial control of the more successful small presses, indie magazines, and lit journals. Just to know what real numbers are like in comparison to the number of women who we all know are writers who merit attention. Just to know.
I’m not saying the numbers would be some big revelation about sexism in the publishing industry, even among the small presses. I really would just be curious to know.
I don’t write poetry. I’ve read a goodly amount. Much more lately. I like the poetry I like. I read poetry instinctually and have very little means of discussing it academically. I like it that way. I read poetry blogs because I’m curious about poetry. I like reading what other writers have to say; but more than any genre working off its webworld interactions and through indie presses, the poetry scene (and I say "scene" because it is, after all, like any other writing community) seems to suffer more at the hands of its institutionalization in academia.
A few weeks ago I had a great, rambling discussion with a friend about the [lack of] poetry reviews/criticism in mainstream or medium-market media. (p.s. it didn’t have a fancy, concise summary like that at the time.) He had good reasons for it, but he believed that poetry reviews and criticism in those markets wouldn’t make any sense. He didn’t believe prose could be reacted to with prose. Writing that had to be heard as well could not be responded to with prose in writing markets like that. I thought that was screwy for someone who writes criticism of both music and literature. I could understand though because he writes poetry too.
But why should poetry be exempt from mainstream reviews or exploitation when fiction and creative nonfiction aren’t?
Here’s what I see as someone who’s looking through the pinhole. (In my head it’s a circle. That doesn’t work here.)
The lack of poetry reviews/criticism in the mainstream press leaves poetry without much of a corporate publishing house market, which leaves poetry to the indie presses and it happily thrives there in many ways. But if you had to be locked in somewhere isn’t in the last place you would want to be?
In the end, a more widespread focus or something…something…what?...tell me! might give the whole thing some breathing room. Less marked territories.
Like I said, I don’t know much about poetry but I want to understand all this because it pains me a little.
I do know about media and gender’s role in it and this is some classic stuff playing out right now and worth reading if only to know how pervasive gender role assignments and assumptions can be. Coming from both men and women. Even, and sometimes especially, among the “open-minded” and “educated.” Myself included. I will never say something that all women agree with. Or all women writers agree with. Or all women writer/bloggers agree with.
Or all women/writer bloggers living in my house would agree with.
I'm not slamming individuals here and I'm not talking about all poetry blogs everywhere. I read many amazing things over the course of a week because of those blogs and I'm grateful for all of them.
Besides, I blog for the same reasons as everyone else. I want my voice out there, I want my writing read. Plus I love getting that just-published feeling every day.
In the tunnel-vision blog world there’s a sort of interesting discussion being had about male and female bloggers in the poetry scene.
Mostly, sparked by this not including a balanced representation of men and women in a very gender varied scene. And some discussion here too.
Of course there’s lots and lots of analyzing and theorizing about. Maybe I should read more philosophy, more lit crit, more semiotics; but maybe I don’t give a shit about using theory to create a nice safe distance between myself and my own opinions.
For instance, this clearly stated, well-intentioned explanation that comes off as just plain sexist. To be fair, the guy's just trying to sort it all out and at least has the guts to do it in public. I just wish it wasn't all based on theory that I think is just old-school gender role assignments.
I wouldn’t mind knowing how many women have editorial control of the more successful small presses, indie magazines, and lit journals. Just to know what real numbers are like in comparison to the number of women who we all know are writers who merit attention. Just to know.
I’m not saying the numbers would be some big revelation about sexism in the publishing industry, even among the small presses. I really would just be curious to know.
I don’t write poetry. I’ve read a goodly amount. Much more lately. I like the poetry I like. I read poetry instinctually and have very little means of discussing it academically. I like it that way. I read poetry blogs because I’m curious about poetry. I like reading what other writers have to say; but more than any genre working off its webworld interactions and through indie presses, the poetry scene (and I say "scene" because it is, after all, like any other writing community) seems to suffer more at the hands of its institutionalization in academia.
A few weeks ago I had a great, rambling discussion with a friend about the [lack of] poetry reviews/criticism in mainstream or medium-market media. (p.s. it didn’t have a fancy, concise summary like that at the time.) He had good reasons for it, but he believed that poetry reviews and criticism in those markets wouldn’t make any sense. He didn’t believe prose could be reacted to with prose. Writing that had to be heard as well could not be responded to with prose in writing markets like that. I thought that was screwy for someone who writes criticism of both music and literature. I could understand though because he writes poetry too.
But why should poetry be exempt from mainstream reviews or exploitation when fiction and creative nonfiction aren’t?
Here’s what I see as someone who’s looking through the pinhole. (In my head it’s a circle. That doesn’t work here.)
The lack of poetry reviews/criticism in the mainstream press leaves poetry without much of a corporate publishing house market, which leaves poetry to the indie presses and it happily thrives there in many ways. But if you had to be locked in somewhere isn’t in the last place you would want to be?
In the end, a more widespread focus or something…something…what?...tell me! might give the whole thing some breathing room. Less marked territories.
Like I said, I don’t know much about poetry but I want to understand all this because it pains me a little.
I do know about media and gender’s role in it and this is some classic stuff playing out right now and worth reading if only to know how pervasive gender role assignments and assumptions can be. Coming from both men and women. Even, and sometimes especially, among the “open-minded” and “educated.” Myself included. I will never say something that all women agree with. Or all women writers agree with. Or all women writer/bloggers agree with.
Or all women/writer bloggers living in my house would agree with.
I'm not slamming individuals here and I'm not talking about all poetry blogs everywhere. I read many amazing things over the course of a week because of those blogs and I'm grateful for all of them.
Besides, I blog for the same reasons as everyone else. I want my voice out there, I want my writing read. Plus I love getting that just-published feeling every day.
posted by Carla at 5:00 AM
3 Comments:
Hey Carla
Continuing on what we started talking about last night, a few more thoughts (this wil be invomplete as I'm on my way to teaching, but I'll do my best).
I've published poems in 20 odd journals and only one was edited by a woman. Before my book was accepted for publication, I entered it in aout 2o contests, small press and university press and major book prize, only one (Barnard) edited by women, and it's a women's college, so come on.
Although a few of the post-avant, post-language poets held up as "influential" by the blogging community where this whole mess started are female, the most significant "influences" most blogging poets would site are male. And the dominant voices in that community are male.
Three poets teach at my university. One is female, older generation, established. One is male, older generation, established. The third is male, same age as me, with one book out. Not well known, arguably, but he got the job over a pool that I hear was roughly 50/50 on the gender line. (I can tell you more about why he got that job offline)
All of this means that sexism in poetry, at the academic level on down to small press and bloggeria, is institutionalized.
Now here's the issue: from where I sit, there isn't much we can do about it other than what we are already doing. You and I are working on a magazine where the editorial staff is unusual because it's, what, 80% female? However, we are not a literary journal and therefore we are not going to be looked at in the same way. We are not academically established or even inclined, which gives us a lot more freedom to do what we want. It also gives us less of a voice in this online discourse about poetry because we are not travelling in the same circles as many of these people: AWP, certain lit mags, certain reading series scenes, etcetera. And frankly I'm fine with that, because my own work will not be help up to scrutiny. I can get away with saying what I think when nobody's reading it.
On the other hand, that very attitude arguably propegates the same problems we're all ranting about -- let me be safe and quiet over here because I don't like being criticized. Hi, I'm enacting historicized gender roles, aren't I?
The people who most intimidate me online are not men (because they're all short in real life!), but in fact, they are women who are more successful, more known than I am. And this is true in real life as well. Jealousy is ugly and an everyday thing. And yet we all enact it. That's what criticism is, literary and otherwise: acting on your jealously about other people's work. So I fear we will never "get over" the gender line because it runs between women as well.
Yikes, I'm going to be late. More on this later. Maybe I'll write it on my own site and leave yours alone!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
why is blogger all crazy? it just posted some jacked up shit last time...
anyway, it's true. it does run between women as well. it's just the division between all individuals. i guess that's why when you end up with a group like the one we work with on the magazine you stick with it because finding those intellectual and personal comrades is really fucking rad and definitely signficant.
i do really love going over all this stuff though. debating makes me excited and since there's so many opinions (even just mine alone!) it never really stops being fun.
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